Arizona Supreme Court rules a near-total abortion ban from 1864 is enforceable

[SallyMae]

It’s a good thing I don’t have Tik Tok then.

My opinion comes from three years as an apprentice midwife and 2 years of cultural anthropology centered around birth practices, particularly focused on midwifery. (and yes, that includes abortion methods)

The only thing YOU have is articles to read… that doesn’t mean everyone who has an opinion on this subject is limited to google for their information, nor are they all limited to recent westernized medicine as the only knowledge base.

Are you saying that you have administered or assisted when someone administered an herbal abortion?

I have observed.

Well. I don't exactly disagree with you. I do think that there are times when we have to act for our own self-determination, despite the strictures of the state. I respect your need to be free of group strictures and identities and act entirely on your own, to create your own destiny. It's important to have some people in any group with that kind of fierce independence.

At the same time, I don't agree that having "observed" an herbal abortion, or studied the anthropology of midwifery, really qualifies you to recommend it as a *safe* alternative to modern medical abortion. There is no need overgeneralize; acknowledging the miracles of modern Western scientific medicine is not the same as believing all others are "idiots."

But, there really ARE advantages to the medicalized model: best practices have been established with large-scale clinical trials rather than anecdotes...there are protocols for determining when dangerous interactions could occur...in an emergency, standardized information about the patient can be shared between providers...plant products vary in strength, while pharmaceuticals have consistent dosage...physicians are required to maintain competencies and receive continuing education in the latest discoveries...they make full use of technical diagnostic imaging and lab tests, which can reveal hidden complications...etc. There really are good reasons to consider a modern medical abortion to be a safer, better choice.

So while I agree that people should not be afraid to think independently and outside the box, especially in the face of government overreach, I don't think a self-administered herbal abortion is a safe or practical solution for women who need to end a pregnancy.

[SallyMae]

My main concern is for how the right is misrepresenting this issue. A day or two ago, Trump went on camera saying that Democrats want abortion up to birth and even after birth...yes, he says, they want to be able to execute babies after birth.

Is that what conservatives think they are fighting? No wonder they think Democrats are monsters. Does anyone even care that this is not true?

I think there is a real problem when Republicans think Democrats are for baby execution, for invasion at the border, for terrorists, for crime, for communism, and all these other ridiculous exaggerations. Who wouldn't hate people who are for that, right? But, no one is for that. It's just demonizing.

[Slimshandy]

Are you saying that you have administered or assisted when someone administered an herbal abortion?

I have observed.

Well. I don't exactly disagree with you. I do think that there are times when we have to act for our own self-determination, despite the strictures of the state. I respect your need to be free of group strictures and identities and act entirely on your own, to create your own destiny. It's important to have some people in any group with that kind of fierce independence.

At the same time, I don't agree that having "observed" an herbal abortion, or studied the anthropology of midwifery, really qualifies you to recommend it as a *safe* alternative to modern medical abortion. There is no need overgeneralize; acknowledging the miracles of modern Western scientific medicine is not the same as believing all others are "idiots."

But, there really ARE advantages to the medicalized model: best practices have been established with large-scale clinical trials rather than anecdotes...there are protocols for determining when dangerous interactions could occur...in an emergency, standardized information about the patient can be shared between providers...plant products vary in strength, while pharmaceuticals have consistent dosage...physicians are required to maintain competencies and receive continuing education in the latest discoveries...they make full use of technical diagnostic imaging and lab tests, which can reveal hidden complications...etc. There really are good reasons to consider a modern medical abortion to be a safer, better choice.

So while I agree that people should not be afraid to think independently and outside the box, especially in the face of government overreach, I don't think a self-administered herbal abortion is a safe or practical solution for women who need to end a pregnancy.

I haven’t recommended anything yet…

I’ve said that Traditional medicine including abortifacients has been utilized in countries like China and Mexico for 5000 years now, and suggested that they’re not idiots.

I didn’t say anything about self administered… I said traditional healers exist and have knowledge about how to end a pregnancy.

In America, our abortions methods can be dangerous as well, but also- in states where abortion is restricted, we are seeing a 62% higher maternal death rate.



In Mexico, the maternal death rate is quite high for those women utilizing western medicine, and it is not as high when traditional healers are used in tandem.

In America, the maternal death rate is quite high, regardless of westernized medicine being utilized.

In China, where traditional medicine is frequently ( almost always) utilized along with westernized medicine, the maternal death rate is much lower than ours…






Maybe… just maybe… there are important things to learn from traditional healers in China and Mexico.

[SallyMae]

I didn’t say anything about self administered… I said traditional healers exist and have knowledge about how to end a pregnancy.

It would be just as illegal for a "traditional healer" to end a pregnancy as it would be for a medical doctor, if abortion is illegal where they practice.

[Slimshandy]

I didn’t say anything about self administered… I said traditional healers exist and have knowledge about how to end a pregnancy.

It would be just as illegal for a "traditional healer" to end a pregnancy as it would be for a medical doctor, if abortion is illegal where they practice.

f**k the laws.


If any laws are created that take away a woman’s autonomy over her own body, every woman in the entire country should stand up against them.



I’ll help anyone that wants an abortion get one. If they want to meet with a traditional healer, I’ll drive them. If they want the Abortion pill, I’ll help them get it. If they want a doctor to perform an abortion, I’ll drive them anywhere in the country or Canada, or Mexico to get it…I’ll help them move to a different state if the feel too scared to go home.

[SallyMae]

I didn’t say anything about self administered… I said traditional healers exist and have knowledge about how to end a pregnancy.

It would be just as illegal for a "traditional healer" to end a pregnancy as it would be for a medical doctor, if abortion is illegal where they practice.

f**k the laws.


If any laws are created that take away a woman’s autonomy over her own body, every woman in the entire country should stand up against them.



I’ll help anyone that wants an abortion get one. If they want to meet with a traditional healer, I’ll drive them. If they want the Abortion pill, I’ll help them get it. If they want a doctor to perform an abortion, I’ll drive them anywhere in the country or Canada, or Mexico to get it…I’ll help them move to a different state if the feel too scared to go home.

Sure, but as long as we are F***ing the laws, people can just illegally go to a real doctor. As long as they are traveling to get an abortion, they can travel to a real doctor. Unless someone really just wants an herbal abortion, I don't see how it's an alternative to a standard medical abortion - it's a crime or a travel either way.

[Slimshandy]

It would be just as illegal for a "traditional healer" to end a pregnancy as it would be for a medical doctor, if abortion is illegal where they practice.

f**k the laws.


If any laws are created that take away a woman’s autonomy over her own body, every woman in the entire country should stand up against them.



I’ll help anyone that wants an abortion get one. If they want to meet with a traditional healer, I’ll drive them. If they want the Abortion pill, I’ll help them get it. If they want a doctor to perform an abortion, I’ll drive them anywhere in the country or Canada, or Mexico to get it…I’ll help them move to a different state if the feel too scared to go home.

Sure, but as long as we are F***ing the laws, people can just illegally go to a real doctor. As long as they are traveling to get an abortion, they can travel to a real doctor. Unless someone really just wants an herbal abortion, I don't see how it's an alternative to a standard medical abortion - it's a crime or a travel either way.

It’s an alternative, because they have a 62% higher chance of death in a state that doesn’t allow abortion.

https://www.commonwealthfund.org/public ... e-outcomes
I can’t personally take every woman that wants one to get one, most women can’t afford it and won’t be able to get there.



So the knowledge is needed.

[cgd5112]

Also known as evidence based medicine.

Are you saying that you have administered or assisted when someone administered an herbal abortion?

I have observed.

Well. I don't exactly disagree with you. I do think that there are times when we have to act for our own self-determination, despite the strictures of the state. I respect your need to be free of group strictures and identities and act entirely on your own, to create your own destiny. It's important to have some people in any group with that kind of fierce independence.

At the same time, I don't agree that having "observed" an herbal abortion, or studied the anthropology of midwifery, really qualifies you to recommend it as a *safe* alternative to modern medical abortion. There is no need overgeneralize; acknowledging the miracles of modern Western scientific medicine is not the same as believing all others are "idiots."

But, there really ARE advantages to the medicalized model: best practices have been established with large-scale clinical trials rather than anecdotes...there are protocols for determining when dangerous interactions could occur...in an emergency, standardized information about the patient can be shared between providers...plant products vary in strength, while pharmaceuticals have consistent dosage...physicians are required to maintain competencies and receive continuing education in the latest discoveries...they make full use of technical diagnostic imaging and lab tests, which can reveal hidden complications...etc. There really are good reasons to consider a modern medical abortion to be a safer, better choice.

So while I agree that people should not be afraid to think independently and outside the box, especially in the face of government overreach, I don't think a self-administered herbal abortion is a safe or practical solution for women who need to end a pregnancy.

[Slimshandy]

5000 years…



Our methods of evidentiary conclusions are limited in the medical field compared to traditional methods.

Also known as evidence based medicine.

I have observed.

Well. I don't exactly disagree with you. I do think that there are times when we have to act for our own self-determination, despite the strictures of the state. I respect your need to be free of group strictures and identities and act entirely on your own, to create your own destiny. It's important to have some people in any group with that kind of fierce independence.

At the same time, I don't agree that having "observed" an herbal abortion, or studied the anthropology of midwifery, really qualifies you to recommend it as a *safe* alternative to modern medical abortion. There is no need overgeneralize; acknowledging the miracles of modern Western scientific medicine is not the same as believing all others are "idiots."

But, there really ARE advantages to the medicalized model: best practices have been established with large-scale clinical trials rather than anecdotes...there are protocols for determining when dangerous interactions could occur...in an emergency, standardized information about the patient can be shared between providers...plant products vary in strength, while pharmaceuticals have consistent dosage...physicians are required to maintain competencies and receive continuing education in the latest discoveries...they make full use of technical diagnostic imaging and lab tests, which can reveal hidden complications...etc. There really are good reasons to consider a modern medical abortion to be a safer, better choice.

So while I agree that people should not be afraid to think independently and outside the box, especially in the face of government overreach, I don't think a self-administered herbal abortion is a safe or practical solution for women who need to end a pregnancy.

[SallyMae]

Sure, but as long as we are F***ing the laws, people can just illegally go to a real doctor. As long as they are traveling to get an abortion, they can travel to a real doctor. Unless someone really just wants an herbal abortion, I don't see how it's an alternative to a standard medical abortion - it's a crime or a travel either way.

It’s an alternative, because they have a 62% higher chance of death in a state that doesn’t allow abortion.

https://www.commonwealthfund.org/public ... e-outcomes
I can’t personally take every woman that wants one to get one, most women can’t afford it and won’t be able to get there.

So the knowledge is needed.

Again, I don't disagree that some women will be forced to try an herbal abortion on their own, but I don't agree that it's safe to do so. There will be a lot of failed attempts and a lot of complications and more maternal deaths. I think we can agree that it should not have come to this.