Biden’s Support for Israel Now Comes With Words of Caution

[Francee89]

Yeah, well I don’t know who this Matt Binder is, but a quick search shows he’s a far leftist with conspiracy theory obsession. I hardly call that “disproving” these images. So he says, we say. And in fact none of those images have been removed. So he’s already lying about that.
So seeing what far leftists are doing right now, many if not most, siding with Hamas, I’ll stick with the people I know are trying to spread the truth

You don’t need to take Matt Binder’s word for it. The photo of someone in a sheet with a cell phone is a child in a Halloween costume, and sharing it with the claim it was some kind of Palestinian crisis actor is absolutely a lie. It is from 2022: you can look at the date here yourself.



That post was deleted from the Israel Twitter account. It is nowhere to be found: https://twitter.com/Israel. Where’s the lie there?

The video of the boy in the hospital is from TikTok in August, which you can verify yourself by looking at the date it was posted: He, in fact, lose his leg:

Is that Israeli’s official government page?

Yes, it’s a verified government account run by Israel's Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

[WellPreserved]

I really don’t know what the answer is.

I agree, public opinion will shift of Israel continues to bomb Gaza and innocent people are dying. I don’t like it either and innocent people in Gaza should have access to the aid that they need.

But unless someone has a better idea, I’m not sure if Israel has much of a choice. You (general) will lose if you fight fair with an opponent who refuses to follow the rules and everybody can get it.

That is basically asking Israel to put themselves in a sitting duck position.

It is a cluster, that's for sure. I believe we would be looking at a very different scenario today if Israel had heeded warnings from their allies regarding their response immediately following the terrorist attack when they had overwhelming support from all of the west and even some Arab countries. 8000 dead, 2000 missing, and 20,000 injured Palestinian civilians (mainly women and children) has created a situation where Israel has lost and continues to lose support so I don't think they are safer now then they were on October 8th but at the same time, it's hard to see a viable way for them to get that support back.

I always think that diplomacy is a better option that battle but admittedly, I'm biased about that. Certainly Blinken has been working double time with some successes but without at least a temporary ceasefire and a dramatic increase in humanitarian aid reaching Palestinians in Gaza, I don't think we'll see the end of any movement diplomatically. I also think that Israel must stop settlers violence against Palestinians ("More than 100 Palestinians have been killed, more than 2,000 injured and nearly 1,000 forcibly displaced by Israeli settlers since Hamas’s Oct. 7 attacks on Israel" https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/30/worl ... lence.html) if they want to be taken seriously that the war is against Hamas and not Palestinians. On the other side, I believe that Hamas must release all hostages.

Hamas is evil and must be destroyed and I support whole heartedly Israel's right to defend itself and I support US supplying military aid in the defense of Israel's border. However, I can't defend war crimes and I think US is making a huge mistake if it supplies any kind of support to a country's perpetration of war crimes no matter who or why as it would have far reaching negative global impact making not just Israel less safe but the US as well. I've been listening to way too many members of our military discuss what Netanyahu should/shouldn't do and what he should have/shouldn't have done with the war against Hamas. I'm not saying that they are right and Netanyahu is wrong, I'm just saying that I believe that Israel has other options.

As far as the dramatic increase in attacks, threats, and intimidation against Jews and Muslims, I think it's horrific. Support for Hamas is equally horrific.

I know, the death toll has surpassed an “eye for an eye” for the Hamas attack and I really want to learn more about the accusations of apartheid over the years because no country is perfect. I would strongly disagree with restricting humanitarian aid to Gaza.

All of this bothers me and I am all for a diplomatic solution but Hamas isn’t budging. We are coming up on a month and they still haven’t freed those hostages, so I just don’t know what choice they have.

For the sake of actually discussing solutions instead of blame, what did your military friends suggest Israel do?

Oh, not friends! Just current and former military members on tv, lol. Generally, the same that the Biden administration has been saying - that Israel should rely on precision airstrikes (they aren't doing that now regardless of what anyone says) and special operations raids rather than full scale ground invasion.

My friends tend to fall into diplomatic circles and they are saying that Biden should not have given "unconditional" aid to Israel but rather conditional that Israel abide by international law, open up a humanitarian aid corridor, and cease bombing southern Gaza. They feel that Israel has lost any kind of support, particularly with the Middle Eastern countries that they had a least diplomatic relations with. And they feel that Israel's claims that current strikes are targeted are disingenuous. There is also concern of who will rule over Gaza and Palestinians after the war has ended and what constitutes an "end of Hamas" and what will define that end. Israel has said that they will disconnect from Gaza when the war is over and will no longer supply Gaza with electricity or goods or allow the limited number of Palestinians cross the border for work. What does that mean for Palestinians especially considering that Gaza's infrastructure has been destroyed?

This is an interview with Josh Paul who resigned from Dept. of State in protest of US handling of the war and it gives good insight into what Dept. of State foreign service officers are thinking - https://time.com/6325957/josh-paul-stat ... rael-arms/

As far as Israel engaging in Apartheid, it's complicated! Human rights groups including an Israeli human rights group issued reports almost two years ago that Israel was engaging in Apartheid, particular in the occupied territories. Last year UN Human Rights Watch issued an independent report that claimed the same. Israel denied the accusations and claimed it was anti-semitism. US backed Israel and last year Congress voted in a resolution that Israel was not engaged in Apartheid. I think that anyone who wants to investigate the claims should read the reports rather than just go by the dissent and I feel that for most things! This is a good article, IMO, on the argument: https://www.vox.com/23924319/israel-pal ... ory-debate.

Frankly, Israel is going to do what they want regardless of what the international community thinks. I think we are starting to see small slivers US led diplomacy working in the release of a few hostages, the little bit of humanitarian aid entering Gaza, and the restoration of comms after a two-day blackout. I don't mean diplomacy with Hamas but rather that Israel and Hamas are not the only two players in the region so diplomacy with surrounding countries, especially those who previously had relations with Israel is important. Unfortunately, we also have Israel's recent severing of ties with Turkey after Erdogan accused Israel of war crimes, so there's that. What will a future for Israel look like if ties with Egypt, Jordan, and Saudi Arabia are severed? Will they be safer? I just don't know.

I spent two weeks being passionately glued to the unfolding crisis and it was extremely painful - I mean pit of my stomach and sleepless nights painful. Over the weekend, I took a social media break as I was finding that the conversation was being overshadowed by a coordinated propaganda campaign as well as oxygen being taken out of all forums disallowing any kind of meaningful communication. I'm back but I am trying really hard to look at it dispassionately (which is HARD) and I'm also trying not to engage in arguments (which is often times even harder)!

[SouthernIslander]

You don’t need to take Matt Binder’s word for it. The photo of someone in a sheet with a cell phone is a child in a Halloween costume, and sharing it with the claim it was some kind of Palestinian crisis actor is absolutely a lie. It is from 2022: you can look at the date here yourself.



That post was deleted from the Israel Twitter account. It is nowhere to be found: https://twitter.com/Israel. Where’s the lie there?

The video of the boy in the hospital is from TikTok in August, which you can verify yourself by looking at the date it was posted: He, in fact, lose his leg:

Is that Israeli’s official government page?

Yes, it’s a verified government account run by Israel's Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

If Israel is posting stuff on the internet that is not true, that is not OK because we need to be able to depend on information that is reasonably truthful. That is the problem that I had with Trump.

[Della]

It is a cluster, that's for sure. I believe we would be looking at a very different scenario today if Israel had heeded warnings from their allies regarding their response immediately following the terrorist attack when they had overwhelming support from all of the west and even some Arab countries. 8000 dead, 2000 missing, and 20,000 injured Palestinian civilians (mainly women and children) has created a situation where Israel has lost and continues to lose support so I don't think they are safer now then they were on October 8th but at the same time, it's hard to see a viable way for them to get that support back.

I always think that diplomacy is a better option that battle but admittedly, I'm biased about that. Certainly Blinken has been working double time with some successes but without at least a temporary ceasefire and a dramatic increase in humanitarian aid reaching Palestinians in Gaza, I don't think we'll see the end of any movement diplomatically. I also think that Israel must stop settlers violence against Palestinians ("More than 100 Palestinians have been killed, more than 2,000 injured and nearly 1,000 forcibly displaced by Israeli settlers since Hamas’s Oct. 7 attacks on Israel" https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/30/worl ... lence.html) if they want to be taken seriously that the war is against Hamas and not Palestinians. On the other side, I believe that Hamas must release all hostages.

Hamas is evil and must be destroyed and I support whole heartedly Israel's right to defend itself and I support US supplying military aid in the defense of Israel's border. However, I can't defend war crimes and I think US is making a huge mistake if it supplies any kind of support to a country's perpetration of war crimes no matter who or why as it would have far reaching negative global impact making not just Israel less safe but the US as well. I've been listening to way too many members of our military discuss what Netanyahu should/shouldn't do and what he should have/shouldn't have done with the war against Hamas. I'm not saying that they are right and Netanyahu is wrong, I'm just saying that I believe that Israel has other options.

As far as the dramatic increase in attacks, threats, and intimidation against Jews and Muslims, I think it's horrific. Support for Hamas is equally horrific.

I know, the death toll has surpassed an “eye for an eye” for the Hamas attack and I really want to learn more about the accusations of apartheid over the years because no country is perfect. I would strongly disagree with restricting humanitarian aid to Gaza.

All of this bothers me and I am all for a diplomatic solution but Hamas isn’t budging. We are coming up on a month and they still haven’t freed those hostages, so I just don’t know what choice they have.

For the sake of actually discussing solutions instead of blame, what did your military friends suggest Israel do?

Oh, not friends! Just current and former military members on tv, lol. Generally, the same that the Biden administration has been saying - that Israel should rely on precision airstrikes (they aren't doing that now regardless of what anyone says) and special operations raids rather than full scale ground invasion.

My friends tend to fall into diplomatic circles and they are saying that Biden should not have given "unconditional" aid to Israel but rather conditional that Israel abide by international law, open up a humanitarian aid corridor, and cease bombing southern Gaza. They feel that Israel has lost any kind of support, particularly with the Middle Eastern countries that they had a least diplomatic relations with. And they feel that Israel's claims that current strikes are targeted are disingenuous. There is also concern of who will rule over Gaza and Palestinians after the war has ended and what constitutes an "end of Hamas" and what will define that end. Israel has said that they will disconnect from Gaza when the war is over and will no longer supply Gaza with electricity or goods or allow the limited number of Palestinians cross the border for work. What does that mean for Palestinians especially considering that Gaza's infrastructure has been destroyed?

This is an interview with Josh Paul who resigned from Dept. of State in protest of US handling of the war and it gives good insight into what Dept. of State foreign service officers are thinking - https://time.com/6325957/josh-paul-stat ... rael-arms/

As far as Israel engaging in Apartheid, it's complicated! Human rights groups including an Israeli human rights group issued reports almost two years ago that Israel was engaging in Apartheid, particular in the occupied territories. Last year UN Human Rights Watch issued an independent report that claimed the same. Israel denied the accusations and claimed it was anti-semitism. US backed Israel and last year Congress voted in a resolution that Israel was not engaged in Apartheid. I think that anyone who wants to investigate the claims should read the reports rather than just go by the dissent and I feel that for most things! This is a good article, IMO, on the argument: https://www.vox.com/23924319/israel-pal ... ory-debate.

Frankly, Israel is going to do what they want regardless of what the international community thinks. I think we are starting to see small slivers US led diplomacy working in the release of a few hostages, the little bit of humanitarian aid entering Gaza, and the restoration of comms after a two-day blackout. I don't mean diplomacy with Hamas but rather that Israel and Hamas are not the only two players in the region so diplomacy with surrounding countries, especially those who previously had relations with Israel is important. Unfortunately, we also have Israel's recent severing of ties with Turkey after Erdogan accused Israel of war crimes, so there's that. What will a future for Israel look like if ties with Egypt, Jordan, and Saudi Arabia are severed? Will they be safer? I just don't know.

I spent two weeks being passionately glued to the unfolding crisis and it was extremely painful - I mean pit of my stomach and sleepless nights painful. Over the weekend, I took a social media break as I was finding that the conversation was being overshadowed by a coordinated propaganda campaign as well as oxygen being taken out of all forums disallowing any kind of meaningful communication. I'm back but I am trying really hard to look at it dispassionately (which is HARD) and I'm also trying not to engage in arguments (which is often times even harder)!

Excellent analysis. Thanks WP.

[Della]

Is that Israeli’s official government page?

Yes, it’s a verified government account run by Israel's Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

If Israel is posting stuff on the internet that is not true, that is not OK because we need to be able to depend on information that is reasonably truthful. That is the problem that I had with Trump.

https://www.trtworld.com/magazine/the-a ... imes-46775

[SouthernIslander]

It is a cluster, that's for sure. I believe we would be looking at a very different scenario today if Israel had heeded warnings from their allies regarding their response immediately following the terrorist attack when they had overwhelming support from all of the west and even some Arab countries. 8000 dead, 2000 missing, and 20,000 injured Palestinian civilians (mainly women and children) has created a situation where Israel has lost and continues to lose support so I don't think they are safer now then they were on October 8th but at the same time, it's hard to see a viable way for them to get that support back.

I always think that diplomacy is a better option that battle but admittedly, I'm biased about that. Certainly Blinken has been working double time with some successes but without at least a temporary ceasefire and a dramatic increase in humanitarian aid reaching Palestinians in Gaza, I don't think we'll see the end of any movement diplomatically. I also think that Israel must stop settlers violence against Palestinians ("More than 100 Palestinians have been killed, more than 2,000 injured and nearly 1,000 forcibly displaced by Israeli settlers since Hamas’s Oct. 7 attacks on Israel" https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/30/worl ... lence.html) if they want to be taken seriously that the war is against Hamas and not Palestinians. On the other side, I believe that Hamas must release all hostages.

Hamas is evil and must be destroyed and I support whole heartedly Israel's right to defend itself and I support US supplying military aid in the defense of Israel's border. However, I can't defend war crimes and I think US is making a huge mistake if it supplies any kind of support to a country's perpetration of war crimes no matter who or why as it would have far reaching negative global impact making not just Israel less safe but the US as well. I've been listening to way too many members of our military discuss what Netanyahu should/shouldn't do and what he should have/shouldn't have done with the war against Hamas. I'm not saying that they are right and Netanyahu is wrong, I'm just saying that I believe that Israel has other options.

As far as the dramatic increase in attacks, threats, and intimidation against Jews and Muslims, I think it's horrific. Support for Hamas is equally horrific.

I know, the death toll has surpassed an “eye for an eye” for the Hamas attack and I really want to learn more about the accusations of apartheid over the years because no country is perfect. I would strongly disagree with restricting humanitarian aid to Gaza.

All of this bothers me and I am all for a diplomatic solution but Hamas isn’t budging. We are coming up on a month and they still haven’t freed those hostages, so I just don’t know what choice they have.

For the sake of actually discussing solutions instead of blame, what did your military friends suggest Israel do?

Oh, not friends! Just current and former military members on tv, lol. Generally, the same that the Biden administration has been saying - that Israel should rely on precision airstrikes (they aren't doing that now regardless of what anyone says) and special operations raids rather than full scale ground invasion.

My friends tend to fall into diplomatic circles and they are saying that Biden should not have given "unconditional" aid to Israel but rather conditional that Israel abide by international law, open up a humanitarian aid corridor, and cease bombing southern Gaza. They feel that Israel has lost any kind of support, particularly with the Middle Eastern countries that they had a least diplomatic relations with. And they feel that Israel's claims that current strikes are targeted are disingenuous. There is also concern of who will rule over Gaza and Palestinians after the war has ended and what constitutes an "end of Hamas" and what will define that end. Israel has said that they will disconnect from Gaza when the war is over and will no longer supply Gaza with electricity or goods or allow the limited number of Palestinians cross the border for work. What does that mean for Palestinians especially considering that Gaza's infrastructure has been destroyed?

This is an interview with Josh Paul who resigned from Dept. of State in protest of US handling of the war and it gives good insight into what Dept. of State foreign service officers are thinking - https://time.com/6325957/josh-paul-stat ... rael-arms/

As far as Israel engaging in Apartheid, it's complicated! Human rights groups including an Israeli human rights group issued reports almost two years ago that Israel was engaging in Apartheid, particular in the occupied territories. Last year UN Human Rights Watch issued an independent report that claimed the same. Israel denied the accusations and claimed it was anti-semitism. US backed Israel and last year Congress voted in a resolution that Israel was not engaged in Apartheid. I think that anyone who wants to investigate the claims should read the reports rather than just go by the dissent and I feel that for most things! This is a good article, IMO, on the argument: https://www.vox.com/23924319/israel-pal ... ory-debate.

Frankly, Israel is going to do what they want regardless of what the international community thinks. I think we are starting to see small slivers US led diplomacy working in the release of a few hostages, the little bit of humanitarian aid entering Gaza, and the restoration of comms after a two-day blackout. I don't mean diplomacy with Hamas but rather that Israel and Hamas are not the only two players in the region so diplomacy with surrounding countries, especially those who previously had relations with Israel is important. Unfortunately, we also have Israel's recent severing of ties with Turkey after Erdogan accused Israel of war crimes, so there's that. What will a future for Israel look like if ties with Egypt, Jordan, and Saudi Arabia are severed? Will they be safer? I just don't know.

I spent two weeks being passionately glued to the unfolding crisis and it was extremely painful - I mean pit of my stomach and sleepless nights painful. Over the weekend, I took a social media break as I was finding that the conversation was being overshadowed by a coordinated propaganda campaign as well as oxygen being taken out of all forums disallowing any kind of meaningful communication. I'm back but I am trying really hard to look at it dispassionately (which is HARD) and I'm also trying not to engage in arguments (which is often times even harder)!

I agree with you on the aid. I can't tell Israel how to fight back but how American funds are being used is our business and we won't be able to avoid the discussion on how Israel has treated Palestinians if US is planning to support this war long term.

The only thing I remember about Palestine was how strongly Nelson Mandela felt about it so I know there is more to the story. I just don't want to throw that accusation at Israel and I haven't taken the time to really understand what happened because its too many people doing that. So thank ya'll for the resources.

I had a really hard time processing that Hamas attack with all the videos coming out of the Middle East. So, I had to stay away from social media too ..especially X (Twitter) because its a cesspool of toxic trolling and the lack of respect for human life is nauseating.

I really feel torn about this because I don't like how Jews or Palestinians over actions taken by a country and a terrorist group. Its so much unfairness and inhumanity in this..it is very stomach turning.

No matter where y'all sit on this debate, I appreciate everyone taking the time to explain this stuff to me.

[Momto2boys973]

Yeah… all that suffering without a leg…
Maybe they’re sextuplets

[bbvideo] [/bbvideo]

Yeah, well I don’t know who this Matt Binder is, but a quick search shows he’s a far leftist with conspiracy theory obsession. I hardly call that “disproving” these images. So he says, we say. And in fact none of those images have been removed. So he’s already lying about that.
So seeing what far leftists are doing right now, many if not most, siding with Hamas, I’ll stick with the people I know are trying to spread the truth

Just so you have further context, two out of those three Instagram posts are debunked conspiracy theories about Palestinian faked deaths: one is a photo from a child in a Halloween costume from last year (not something posted by anyone in Gaza) and the other features two different people.





Not that I take Hamas at their word about an accurate death toll, but I don’t think inventing stories and about Palestinian crisis actors in order to obfuscate whether they’re actually suffering is at all helpful.

You don’t need to take Matt Binder’s word for it. The photo of someone in a sheet with a cell phone is a child in a Halloween costume, and sharing it with the claim it was some kind of Palestinian crisis actor is absolutely a lie. It is from 2022: you can look at the date here yourself.



That post was deleted from the Israel Twitter account. It is nowhere to be found: https://twitter.com/Israel. Where’s the lie there?

The video of the boy in the hospital is from TikTok in August, which you can verify yourself by looking at the date it was posted: He, in fact, lose his leg:

[Francee89]

Yeah… all that suffering without a leg…
Maybe they’re sextuplets

[bbvideo] [/bbvideo]

Yeah, well I don’t know who this Matt Binder is, but a quick search shows he’s a far leftist with conspiracy theory obsession. I hardly call that “disproving” these images. So he says, we say. And in fact none of those images have been removed. So he’s already lying about that.
So seeing what far leftists are doing right now, many if not most, siding with Hamas, I’ll stick with the people I know are trying to spread the truth

You don’t need to take Matt Binder’s word for it. The photo of someone in a sheet with a cell phone is a child in a Halloween costume, and sharing it with the claim it was some kind of Palestinian crisis actor is absolutely a lie. It is from 2022: you can look at the date here yourself.



That post was deleted from the Israel Twitter account. It is nowhere to be found: https://twitter.com/Israel. Where’s the lie there?

The video of the boy in the hospital is from TikTok in August, which you can verify yourself by looking at the date it was posted: He, in fact, lose his leg:

There’s no need to consider maybes here - they’re in actuality just two people who look alike. The video of the boy in the hospital was posted on TikTok in August. The Israeli government’s now-deleted Twitter post was entirely incorrect in claiming that was footage of someone “pretending to be on his deathbed a couple days later”, because unless these conspiracy theorists think “Pallywood” has a time machine, there’s documented proof of one of these people losing their leg well before the October 7 attack, and of one of these people posting these videos of himself to his easily accessible Instagram account, with both legs, currently.

https://www.reuters.com/fact-check/inju ... 023-10-27/

[WellPreserved]

There’s no need to consider maybes here - they’re in actuality just two people who look alike. The video of the boy in the hospital was posted on TikTok in August. The Israeli government’s now-deleted Twitter post was entirely incorrect in claiming that was footage of someone “pretending to be on his deathbed a couple days later”, because unless these conspiracy theorists think “Pallywood” has a time machine, there’s documented proof of one of these people losing their leg well before the October 7 attack, and of one of these people posting these videos of himself to his easily accessible Instagram account, with both legs, currently.

https://www.reuters.com/fact-check/inju ... 023-10-27/
[/quote]

Also the dead Palestinian child whose picture was posted on Israel's official twitter account with the caption "Hamas accidentally posted a video of a doll (yes a doll) suggesting that it was a part of casualties caused by an IDF [Israel Defense Forces] attack." It was shared to Israeli embassy posts in France and Austria and was also included in a post in this forum. The boy was named Omar and was very much real and very much dead.

[Francee89]

There’s no need to consider maybes here - they’re in actuality just two people who look alike. The video of the boy in the hospital was posted on TikTok in August. The Israeli government’s now-deleted Twitter post was entirely incorrect in claiming that was footage of someone “pretending to be on his deathbed a couple days later”, because unless these conspiracy theorists think “Pallywood” has a time machine, there’s documented proof of one of these people losing their leg well before the October 7 attack, and of one of these people posting these videos of himself to his easily accessible Instagram account, with both legs, currently.

https://www.reuters.com/fact-check/inju ... 023-10-27/

Also the dead Palestinian child whose picture was posted on Israel's official twitter account with the caption "Hamas accidentally posted a video of a doll (yes a doll) suggesting that it was a part of casualties caused by an IDF [Israel Defense Forces] attack." It was shared to Israeli embassy posts in France and Austria and was also included in a post in this forum. The boy was named Omar and was very much real and very much dead.
[/quote]

I think it’s perfectly fair for governments and pro-Israel media/social media to urge caution and critical evaluation of numbers being reported, both since the sources isn’t reliable and since information out of a war zone may need time for details to emerge. But the weird (for lack of a better word) tone of the Pallywood conspiracy theorist stuff that seems almost gleeful in insisting Palestinian suffering must be fake is so gross, and this kind of misinformation from Israeli government sources is only going to erode trust in what they say, which obviously isn’t ideal in any case, but especially not now.

(For the record, just in case anyone was planning to follow up and ask, I think any and all conspiracy theories floating around m about Israelis exaggerating or lying about the horrors and scale of the October 7th attack are obviously false and are disgusting. I just read this and it’s heartbreaking but a look at the fact that both Omar’s and an Israeli little boy named Omer’s deaths became fodder for this kind of denialism: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67206277.amp)