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Re: Religious nut Senator Tom Cotton claims slavery and holocaust were necessary
Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 4:58 pm
by Momto2boys973
I always enjoy talking to you. You’re one of the few here who can have a discussion without insulting and attacking!
I think that’s the bottom line. We cannot prove who’s right and who’s wrong. So we really can not impose one set of standards for all. That will ultimately result in conflict. Sometimes solvable, sometimes not.
SallyMae wrote: ↑Wed Jul 29, 2020 4:48 pm
Momto2boys973, thank you for discussing this with me because it's an important point.
I am not claiming that your beliefs are false. I am saying that they can't be proved. They could be wrong, at least in some of the details. There is no way to establish that they are 'righter' than the supernatural beliefs of others.
That doesn't mean we have no facts at all. Plenty of stuff can be proven and established. More than enough material, I would suggest, upon which to make geopolitical decisions about who lives and who dies.
How much more unresolvable conflict should we have for supernatural claims that *could* be wrong?
Momto2boys973 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 29, 2020 4:23 pm
Well, maybe I misunderstood, but you seem to claim that all those beliefs are “supernatural” and therefore false. That the only reality is what we can physically see. So those beliefs should be ignored because they can’t be proven as true.
But thing is, you can’t also prove them wrong. You said that if something can “just as well be easily wrong” then it falls into failing standards of reason.
Well, you could just as well be easily wrong too...
SallyMae wrote: ↑Wed Jul 29, 2020 4:11 pm
What claims did I make that I cannot prove?
Re: Religious nut Senator Tom Cotton claims slavery and holocaust were necessary
Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 5:10 pm
by SallyMae
Great to talk to you too, but that is not what I am saying either.
I am saying there should be a standard and the standard for geopolitical decisions should be 'not supernatural.'
Momto2boys973 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 29, 2020 4:58 pm
I always enjoy talking to you. You’re one of the few here who can have a discussion without insulting and attacking!
I think that’s the bottom line.
We cannot prove who’s right and who’s wrong. So we really can not impose one set of standards for all. That will ultimately result in conflict. Sometimes solvable, sometimes not.
Re: Religious nut Senator Tom Cotton claims slavery and holocaust were necessary
Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 5:43 pm
by Carpy
SallyMae wrote: ↑Wed Jul 29, 2020 4:48 pm
Momto2boys973, thank you for discussing this with me because it's an important point.
I am not claiming that your beliefs are false. I am saying that they can't be proved. They could be wrong, at least in some of the details. There is no way to establish that they are 'righter' than the supernatural beliefs of others.
That doesn't mean we have no facts at all. Plenty of stuff can be proven and established. More than enough material, I would suggest, upon which to make geopolitical decisions about who lives and who dies.
How much more unresolvable conflict should we have for supernatural claims that *could* be wrong?
Momto2boys973 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 29, 2020 4:23 pm
Well, maybe I misunderstood, but you seem to claim that all those beliefs are “supernatural” and therefore false. That the only reality is what we can physically see. So those beliefs should be ignored because they can’t be proven as true.
But thing is, you can’t also prove them wrong. You said that if something can “just as well be easily wrong” then it falls into failing standards of reason.
Well, you could just as well be easily wrong too...
SallyMae wrote: ↑Wed Jul 29, 2020 4:11 pm
What claims did I make that I cannot prove?
What I think you fail to understand is that the quest for power is the goal, religion in one for or another is just the weapon.
Re: Religious nut Senator Tom Cotton claims slavery and holocaust were necessary
Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 6:12 pm
by Aletheia
Lemons wrote: ↑Tue Jul 28, 2020 7:04 pm
Of the Jewish Holocaust Cotton told the Arkansas Democrat-Gazette:
“the Holocaust was also a necessary evil.” Appearing earlier today on the Fox New Channel’s morning show Fox and Friends, Cotton justified his remarks, arguing that “absent the Holocaust, Israel would not be a country today.”
Ignoring the issue of whether the creation of the state of Israel now (instead of, say, in 500 years time) is sufficiently important to justify committing the Holocaust, were that an EITHER / OR choice, and that even the Jews wouldn't agree it was a good trade...
he's wrong from a logical point of view. It would only count as "necessary" in order to achieve it if it could have been achieved in no other possible way. And there are many possible ways it could have been achieved by an omnipotent deity who has (on occasion, it is claimed) taken a direct hand in things, destroying whole cities and manipulating the thoughts of leaders (such as Egypt's Pharaoh).
Re: Religious nut Senator Tom Cotton claims slavery and holocaust were necessary
Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 6:23 pm
by Aletheia
Mr.Smile wrote: ↑Wed Jul 29, 2020 12:13 am
Tom cotton did not say *he" felt slavery was a necessary evil but that the founding fathers felt slavery was a necessary evil
His words were: "We have to study the history of slavery and its role and impact on the development of our country because otherwise we can’t understand our country.
As the Founding Fathers said, it was the necessary evil upon which the union was built"
I've highlighted the word "as". In that sort of grammatical construction, it means the person agrees with the opinion they are referring to. You've probably come across it in the phrase "As the Good Book says..." referring to the Bible.
Re: Religious nut Senator Tom Cotton claims slavery and holocaust were necessary
Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 6:24 pm
by Frau Holle
Carpy wrote: ↑Wed Jul 29, 2020 5:43 pm
SallyMae wrote: ↑Wed Jul 29, 2020 4:48 pm
Momto2boys973, thank you for discussing this with me because it's an important point.
I am not claiming that your beliefs are false. I am saying that they can't be proved. They could be wrong, at least in some of the details. There is no way to establish that they are 'righter' than the supernatural beliefs of others.
That doesn't mean we have no facts at all. Plenty of stuff can be proven and established. More than enough material, I would suggest, upon which to make geopolitical decisions about who lives and who dies.
How much more unresolvable conflict should we have for supernatural claims that *could* be wrong?
Momto2boys973 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 29, 2020 4:23 pm
Well, maybe I misunderstood, but you seem to claim that all those beliefs are “supernatural” and therefore false. That the only reality is what we can physically see. So those beliefs should be ignored because they can’t be proven as true.
But thing is, you can’t also prove them wrong. You said that if something can “just as well be easily wrong” then it falls into failing standards of reason.
Well, you could just as well be easily wrong too...
What I think you fail to understand is that the quest for power is the goal, religion in one for or another is just the weapon.
Yes, But it's all the same thing.
Does a country win a war, or do the weapons they use enable them to win ?
Re: Religious nut Senator Tom Cotton claims slavery and holocaust were necessary
Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 6:27 pm
by Frau Holle
Aletheia wrote: ↑Wed Jul 29, 2020 6:12 pm
Lemons wrote: ↑Tue Jul 28, 2020 7:04 pm
Of the Jewish Holocaust Cotton told the Arkansas Democrat-Gazette:
“the Holocaust was also a necessary evil.” Appearing earlier today on the Fox New Channel’s morning show Fox and Friends, Cotton justified his remarks, arguing that “absent the Holocaust, Israel would not be a country today.”
Ignoring the issue of whether the creation of the state of Israel now (instead of, say, in 500 years time) is sufficiently important to justify committing the Holocaust, were that an EITHER / OR choice, and that even the Jews wouldn't agree it was a good trade...
he's wrong from a logical point of view. It would only count as "necessary" in order to achieve it if it could have been achieved in no other possible way. And there are many possible ways it could have been achieved by an omnipotent deity who has (on occasion, it is claimed) taken a direct hand in things, destroying whole cities and manipulating the thoughts of leaders (such as Egypt's Pharaoh).
He is of the faith that everything happens for a reason and God set into motion those reasons.
So everything in all of history that has ever happened until now has been necessary.
Re: Religious nut Senator Tom Cotton claims slavery and holocaust were necessary
Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 7:59 pm
by Lemons
Aletheia wrote: ↑Wed Jul 29, 2020 6:12 pm
Lemons wrote: ↑Tue Jul 28, 2020 7:04 pm
Of the Jewish Holocaust Cotton told the Arkansas Democrat-Gazette:
“the Holocaust was also a necessary evil.” Appearing earlier today on the Fox New Channel’s morning show Fox and Friends, Cotton justified his remarks, arguing that “absent the Holocaust, Israel would not be a country today.”
Ignoring the issue of whether the creation of the state of Israel now (instead of, say, in 500 years time) is sufficiently important to justify committing the Holocaust, were that an EITHER / OR choice, and that even the Jews wouldn't agree it was a good trade...
he's wrong from a logical point of view. It would only count as "necessary" in order to achieve it if it could have been achieved in no other possible way. And there are many possible ways it could have been achieved by an omnipotent deity who has (on occasion, it is claimed) taken a direct hand in things, destroying whole cities and manipulating the thoughts of leaders (such as Egypt's Pharaoh).
The most reprehensible piece of this is Cotton believed it was a necessary evil to get the Jews back there for the sole purpose of the Christian's savior reappearing.
Trump, who doesn't give a shit about anyone, put the embassy in Jerusalem for the sole purpose of pleasing and keeping his voters. The extreme religious views are that there will be a second coming of Christ and that everyone will perish except the chosen Christians and only the Jews who have converted to Christianity will be saved. Yeah, they love the Jews for keeping Israel safe while they wait for Jesus.
Re: Religious nut Senator Tom Cotton claims slavery and holocaust were necessary
Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2020 8:56 am
by Della
Re: Religious nut Senator Tom Cotton claims slavery and holocaust were necessary
Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2020 9:12 am
by Frau Holle
Look, I am sorry but at this point restitutions should be over and European countries are starting to put their foot down.
There’s been over 70 Billion given by Germany alone and countless more billions from other countries.
If there are holocaust victims living in poverty, they need to ask where all that money went.