Debunking the myth that anti-Zionism is antisemitic

[Quorra2.0]

About 10 yrs ago, A. B. Yehoshua wrote a really good opinion piece about Zionism. I’ll look, see if I can find it, and add the link at the end.

He writes about how Zionism isn’t an ideology but a concept and this concept has a clear simple definition, it’s a “a very broad platform for various ideologies that may even contradict one another.”(Yehoshua) He’s not wrong.

I have issues with some of the article posted in the OP as part of the author’s argument towards “debunking”. They are flawed.

That said, it is dangerous and problematic to generalize anti Zionism as antisemitic. A person can be an anti Zionist because they are antisemitic. BUT are we going to call Israeli Jews who are anti Zionists because they “see the State of Israel as an abomination and a desecration of God’s name.”?

https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2013-05 ... f2668d0000

There's a paywall.

I looked him up though.


"It’s possible that there will be a war with the Palestinians. It’s not necessary, it’s not impossible. But if there is a war, it will be a very short one. Maybe a war of six days. Because after we remove the settlements and after we stop being an occupation army, all the rules of war will be different. We will exercise our full force. We will not have to run around looking for this terrorist or that instigator—we will make use of force against an entire population. We will use total force. Because from the minute we withdraw I don’t even want to know their names. I don’t want any personal relations with them. I am no longer in a situation of occupation and policing and B’Tselem [the human rights organization]. Instead, I will be standing opposite them in a position of nation versus nation. State versus state. I am not going to perpetrate war crimes for their own sake, but I will use all my force against them. If there is shooting at Ashkelon, there is no electricity in Gaza. We shall use force against an entire population. We shall use total force. It will be a totally different war. It will be much harder on the Palestinians. If they shoot Qassam missiles at Ashkelon, we will cut electricity to Gaza. We shall cut communications in Gaza. We shall prevent fuel from entering Gaza. We will use our full force as we did on the Egyptian [Suez] Canal in 1969. And then, when the Palestinian suffering will be totally different, much more serious, they will, by themselves, eliminate the terror. The Palestinian nation will overcome terrorism itself. It won’t have any other choice. Let them stop the shooting. No matter if it is the PA [Palestinian Authority] or the Hamas. Whoever takes responsibility for the fuel, electricity and hospitals, and sees that they do not function, will operate within a few days to stop the shooting of the Qassams. This new situation will totally change the rules of the game. Not a desired war, but definitely aw purifying one. A war that will make it clear to the Palestinians that they are sovereign. The suffering they will go through in the post-occupation situation will make clear to them that they must stop the violence, because now they are sovereign. From the moment we retreat I don’t want to know their names at all. I don’t want any personal relationship with them, and I am not going to commit war crimes for their own sake."[30]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._B._Yehoshua

Gifted: https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2013-05 ... 279c980006

Thank you, I wasn’t sure if my link would do a paywall or not and didn’t think to double check.

[Quorra2.0]

About 10 yrs ago, A. B. Yehoshua wrote a really good opinion piece about Zionism. I’ll look, see if I can find it, and add the link at the end.

He writes about how Zionism isn’t an ideology but a concept and this concept has a clear simple definition, it’s a “a very broad platform for various ideologies that may even contradict one another.”(Yehoshua) He’s not wrong.

I have issues with some of the article posted in the OP as part of the author’s argument towards “debunking”. They are flawed.

That said, it is dangerous and problematic to generalize anti Zionism as antisemitic. A person can be an anti Zionist because they are antisemitic. BUT are we going to call Israeli Jews who are anti Zionists because they “see the State of Israel as an abomination and a desecration of God’s name.”?

https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2013-05 ... f2668d0000

There's a paywall.

I looked him up though.


"It’s possible that there will be a war with the Palestinians. It’s not necessary, it’s not impossible. But if there is a war, it will be a very short one. Maybe a war of six days. Because after we remove the settlements and after we stop being an occupation army, all the rules of war will be different. We will exercise our full force. We will not have to run around looking for this terrorist or that instigator—we will make use of force against an entire population. We will use total force. Because from the minute we withdraw I don’t even want to know their names. I don’t want any personal relations with them. I am no longer in a situation of occupation and policing and B’Tselem [the human rights organization]. Instead, I will be standing opposite them in a position of nation versus nation. State versus state. I am not going to perpetrate war crimes for their own sake, but I will use all my force against them. If there is shooting at Ashkelon, there is no electricity in Gaza. We shall use force against an entire population. We shall use total force. It will be a totally different war. It will be much harder on the Palestinians. If they shoot Qassam missiles at Ashkelon, we will cut electricity to Gaza. We shall cut communications in Gaza. We shall prevent fuel from entering Gaza. We will use our full force as we did on the Egyptian [Suez] Canal in 1969. And then, when the Palestinian suffering will be totally different, much more serious, they will, by themselves, eliminate the terror. The Palestinian nation will overcome terrorism itself. It won’t have any other choice. Let them stop the shooting. No matter if it is the PA [Palestinian Authority] or the Hamas. Whoever takes responsibility for the fuel, electricity and hospitals, and sees that they do not function, will operate within a few days to stop the shooting of the Qassams. This new situation will totally change the rules of the game. Not a desired war, but definitely aw purifying one. A war that will make it clear to the Palestinians that they are sovereign. The suffering they will go through in the post-occupation situation will make clear to them that they must stop the violence, because now they are sovereign. From the moment we retreat I don’t want to know their names at all. I don’t want any personal relationship with them, and I am not going to commit war crimes for their own sake."[30]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._B._Yehoshua

Wells added a link to the article that isn’t behind a paywall. I’m not a fan of Wikipedia as it can be user edited but with Yehoshua his quotes are very contextual. Up until a few years before his death, he supported a 2 state solution. He never denied Palestinians their identity but was always looking at viable peaceful solutions of equality. Towards his death, he no longer thought this was possible with a 2 state solution, not because of fear, hatred, or distrust but because he didn’t see it as being viable for equality and peace.

[Pjmm]

I think one can be a Zionist and not agree with what Israel or their president is doing. I’m American, identify as such, and don’t like everything America has done or is doing now. That’s why we protest. Not to tear a country down but set it right. I also think this article has some valid points to it. Neither country is without blame. Time to acknowledge that and move forward to a resolution.

[Della]

About 10 yrs ago, A. B. Yehoshua wrote a really good opinion piece about Zionism. I’ll look, see if I can find it, and add the link at the end.

He writes about how Zionism isn’t an ideology but a concept and this concept has a clear simple definition, it’s a “a very broad platform for various ideologies that may even contradict one another.”(Yehoshua) He’s not wrong.

I have issues with some of the article posted in the OP as part of the author’s argument towards “debunking”. They are flawed.

That said, it is dangerous and problematic to generalize anti Zionism as antisemitic. A person can be an anti Zionist because they are antisemitic. BUT are we going to call Israeli Jews who are anti Zionists because they “see the State of Israel as an abomination and a desecration of God’s name.”?

https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2013-05 ... f2668d0000

There's a paywall.

I looked him up though.


"It’s possible that there will be a war with the Palestinians. It’s not necessary, it’s not impossible. But if there is a war, it will be a very short one. Maybe a war of six days. Because after we remove the settlements and after we stop being an occupation army, all the rules of war will be different. We will exercise our full force. We will not have to run around looking for this terrorist or that instigator—we will make use of force against an entire population. We will use total force. Because from the minute we withdraw I don’t even want to know their names. I don’t want any personal relations with them. I am no longer in a situation of occupation and policing and B’Tselem [the human rights organization]. Instead, I will be standing opposite them in a position of nation versus nation. State versus state. I am not going to perpetrate war crimes for their own sake, but I will use all my force against them. If there is shooting at Ashkelon, there is no electricity in Gaza. We shall use force against an entire population. We shall use total force. It will be a totally different war. It will be much harder on the Palestinians. If they shoot Qassam missiles at Ashkelon, we will cut electricity to Gaza. We shall cut communications in Gaza. We shall prevent fuel from entering Gaza. We will use our full force as we did on the Egyptian [Suez] Canal in 1969. And then, when the Palestinian suffering will be totally different, much more serious, they will, by themselves, eliminate the terror. The Palestinian nation will overcome terrorism itself. It won’t have any other choice. Let them stop the shooting. No matter if it is the PA [Palestinian Authority] or the Hamas. Whoever takes responsibility for the fuel, electricity and hospitals, and sees that they do not function, will operate within a few days to stop the shooting of the Qassams. This new situation will totally change the rules of the game. Not a desired war, but definitely aw purifying one. A war that will make it clear to the Palestinians that they are sovereign. The suffering they will go through in the post-occupation situation will make clear to them that they must stop the violence, because now they are sovereign. From the moment we retreat I don’t want to know their names at all. I don’t want any personal relationship with them, and I am not going to commit war crimes for their own sake."[30]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._B._Yehoshua

Gifted: https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2013-05 ... 279c980006

Thanks!

[Della]

About 10 yrs ago, A. B. Yehoshua wrote a really good opinion piece about Zionism. I’ll look, see if I can find it, and add the link at the end.

He writes about how Zionism isn’t an ideology but a concept and this concept has a clear simple definition, it’s a “a very broad platform for various ideologies that may even contradict one another.”(Yehoshua) He’s not wrong.

I have issues with some of the article posted in the OP as part of the author’s argument towards “debunking”. They are flawed.

That said, it is dangerous and problematic to generalize anti Zionism as antisemitic. A person can be an anti Zionist because they are antisemitic. BUT are we going to call Israeli Jews who are anti Zionists because they “see the State of Israel as an abomination and a desecration of God’s name.”?

https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2013-05 ... f2668d0000

There's a paywall.

I looked him up though.


"It’s possible that there will be a war with the Palestinians. It’s not necessary, it’s not impossible. But if there is a war, it will be a very short one. Maybe a war of six days. Because after we remove the settlements and after we stop being an occupation army, all the rules of war will be different. We will exercise our full force. We will not have to run around looking for this terrorist or that instigator—we will make use of force against an entire population. We will use total force. Because from the minute we withdraw I don’t even want to know their names. I don’t want any personal relations with them. I am no longer in a situation of occupation and policing and B’Tselem [the human rights organization]. Instead, I will be standing opposite them in a position of nation versus nation. State versus state. I am not going to perpetrate war crimes for their own sake, but I will use all my force against them. If there is shooting at Ashkelon, there is no electricity in Gaza. We shall use force against an entire population. We shall use total force. It will be a totally different war. It will be much harder on the Palestinians. If they shoot Qassam missiles at Ashkelon, we will cut electricity to Gaza. We shall cut communications in Gaza. We shall prevent fuel from entering Gaza. We will use our full force as we did on the Egyptian [Suez] Canal in 1969. And then, when the Palestinian suffering will be totally different, much more serious, they will, by themselves, eliminate the terror. The Palestinian nation will overcome terrorism itself. It won’t have any other choice. Let them stop the shooting. No matter if it is the PA [Palestinian Authority] or the Hamas. Whoever takes responsibility for the fuel, electricity and hospitals, and sees that they do not function, will operate within a few days to stop the shooting of the Qassams. This new situation will totally change the rules of the game. Not a desired war, but definitely aw purifying one. A war that will make it clear to the Palestinians that they are sovereign. The suffering they will go through in the post-occupation situation will make clear to them that they must stop the violence, because now they are sovereign. From the moment we retreat I don’t want to know their names at all. I don’t want any personal relationship with them, and I am not going to commit war crimes for their own sake."[30]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._B._Yehoshua

Wells added a link to the article that isn’t behind a paywall. I’m not a fan of Wikipedia as it can be user edited but with Yehoshua his quotes are very contextual. Up until a few years before his death, he supported a 2 state solution. He never denied Palestinians their identity but was always looking at viable peaceful solutions of equality. Towards his death, he no longer thought this was possible with a 2 state solution, not because of fear, hatred, or distrust but because he didn’t see it as being viable for equality and peace.

"Here is the definition: A Zionist is a person who desires or supports the establishment of a Jewish state in the Land of Israel, which in the future will become the state of the Jewish people. This is based on what Herzl said: “In Basel I founded the Jewish state.”

The key word in this definition is “state,” and its natural location is the Land of Israel because of the Jewish people’s historical link to it."

The bolded sections. That's the entire issue with Zionism. That wasn't a land sitting empty and waiting for their return. They're almost 2000 years removed. What gave anyone the right to just move the other people who had been living there since biblical times?

[Momto2boys973]

Exactly. Zionism simply means the right of Jews to self determination and governance in their ancestral land. It has nothing to do with politics, to the Middke East conflict or whether or not they support the Israeli government.
That’s what these so called “antizionists” don’t get. And that’s why antizionism is antisemitism.
And the proof is that the people being targeted right now are JEWS. No one asks a student with a Star of David if they like Bibi or not before attacking them.

I think one can be a Zionist and not agree with what Israel or their president is doing. I’m American, identify as such, and don’t like everything America has done or is doing now. That’s why we protest. Not to tear a country down but set it right. I also think this article has some valid points to it. Neither country is without blame. Time to acknowledge that and move forward to a resolution.

[Pjmm]

Exactly. Zionism simply means the right of Jews to self determination and governance in their ancestral land. It has nothing to do with politics, to the Middke East conflict or whether or not they support the Israeli government.
That’s what these so called “antizionists” don’t get. And that’s why antizionism is antisemitism.
And the proof is that the people being targeted right now are JEWS. No one asks a student with a Star of David if they like Bibi or not before attacking them.

I think one can be a Zionist and not agree with what Israel or their president is doing. I’m American, identify as such, and don’t like everything America has done or is doing now. That’s why we protest. Not to tear a country down but set it right. I also think this article has some valid points to it. Neither country is without blame. Time to acknowledge that and move forward to a resolution.

The article has stated many people have lost their ancestral lands. Native Americans are one of those people. They have some land back but many tribes face poverty, high drug use, and unemployment. For better or worse they have to negotiate with our government. Jews aren't the only ones with this problem. But I'm not advocating for anti-zionism. Everyone should have a place to live, for their people to govern. Idc what side they're on. But I can see why people are angry with Israel and why students want Columbia to leave their deals with Israel. But people should protest Israel, not harass students who have nothing to do with anything.

[Momto2boys973]

That’s why Zionism is the greatest example of decolonization in history.
Many people think that “Zionism” is a 19th century European philosophy. That’s false. Zionism is actually the basis of Judaism. From the Book of Genesis and Abraham and his descendants settling there to the story of Exodus, which we actually just retold during the holiday of Pesach. The Pesach safer actually ends with the words “next year in Jerusalem”. It’s 100% a celebration of Zionism. Same for Hannukah.
That’s another reason antizionism is antisemitism- it’s literally the essence of Judaism.

Exactly. Zionism simply means the right of Jews to self determination and governance in their ancestral land. It has nothing to do with politics, to the Middke East conflict or whether or not they support the Israeli government.
That’s what these so called “antizionists” don’t get. And that’s why antizionism is antisemitism.
And the proof is that the people being targeted right now are JEWS. No one asks a student with a Star of David if they like Bibi or not before attacking them.

I think one can be a Zionist and not agree with what Israel or their president is doing. I’m American, identify as such, and don’t like everything America has done or is doing now. That’s why we protest. Not to tear a country down but set it right. I also think this article has some valid points to it. Neither country is without blame. Time to acknowledge that and move forward to a resolution.

The article has stated many people have lost their ancestral lands. Native Americans are one of those people. They have some land back but many tribes face poverty, high drug use, and unemployment. For better or worse they have to negotiate with our government. Jews aren't the only ones with this problem. But I'm not advocating for anti-zionism. Everyone should have a place to live, for their people to govern. Idc what side they're on. But I can see why people are angry with Israel and why students want Columbia to leave their deals with Israel. But people should protest Israel, not harass students who have nothing to do with anything.

[Quorra2.0]

There's a paywall.

I looked him up though.


"It’s possible that there will be a war with the Palestinians. It’s not necessary, it’s not impossible. But if there is a war, it will be a very short one. Maybe a war of six days. Because after we remove the settlements and after we stop being an occupation army, all the rules of war will be different. We will exercise our full force. We will not have to run around looking for this terrorist or that instigator—we will make use of force against an entire population. We will use total force. Because from the minute we withdraw I don’t even want to know their names. I don’t want any personal relations with them. I am no longer in a situation of occupation and policing and B’Tselem [the human rights organization]. Instead, I will be standing opposite them in a position of nation versus nation. State versus state. I am not going to perpetrate war crimes for their own sake, but I will use all my force against them. If there is shooting at Ashkelon, there is no electricity in Gaza. We shall use force against an entire population. We shall use total force. It will be a totally different war. It will be much harder on the Palestinians. If they shoot Qassam missiles at Ashkelon, we will cut electricity to Gaza. We shall cut communications in Gaza. We shall prevent fuel from entering Gaza. We will use our full force as we did on the Egyptian [Suez] Canal in 1969. And then, when the Palestinian suffering will be totally different, much more serious, they will, by themselves, eliminate the terror. The Palestinian nation will overcome terrorism itself. It won’t have any other choice. Let them stop the shooting. No matter if it is the PA [Palestinian Authority] or the Hamas. Whoever takes responsibility for the fuel, electricity and hospitals, and sees that they do not function, will operate within a few days to stop the shooting of the Qassams. This new situation will totally change the rules of the game. Not a desired war, but definitely aw purifying one. A war that will make it clear to the Palestinians that they are sovereign. The suffering they will go through in the post-occupation situation will make clear to them that they must stop the violence, because now they are sovereign. From the moment we retreat I don’t want to know their names at all. I don’t want any personal relationship with them, and I am not going to commit war crimes for their own sake."[30]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._B._Yehoshua

Wells added a link to the article that isn’t behind a paywall. I’m not a fan of Wikipedia as it can be user edited but with Yehoshua his quotes are very contextual. Up until a few years before his death, he supported a 2 state solution. He never denied Palestinians their identity but was always looking at viable peaceful solutions of equality. Towards his death, he no longer thought this was possible with a 2 state solution, not because of fear, hatred, or distrust but because he didn’t see it as being viable for equality and peace.

"Here is the definition: A Zionist is a person who desires or supports the establishment of a Jewish state in the Land of Israel, which in the future will become the state of the Jewish people. This is based on what Herzl said: “In Basel I founded the Jewish state.”

The key word in this definition is “state,” and its natural location is the Land of Israel because of the Jewish people’s historical link to it."

The bolded sections. That's the entire issue with Zionism. That wasn't a land sitting empty and waiting for their return. They're almost 2000 years removed. What gave anyone the right to just move the other people who had been living there since biblical times?

Do you think Jews left for almost 2000 yrs and the Palestinians have been there since biblical times? That’s how your reply reads, the first is inaccurate and the second is complicated. There were population fluctuations. Despite expulsion, massacre, and slavery the population was never zero. There were Jews in what is present day Israel during the Byzantine Empire, The Kingdom of Jerusalem, the Mamaluk, the Ottoman Empire, etc. “Palestinians” or more accurately people who identify as Palestinian today didn’t exist as Palestinian before the Palestinian movement, which began by Arabs in Mandatory Palestine to counter Zionism. Prior to this Palestinian was a term used for all people in Mandatory Palestine: Jews, Christian, Muslim, Arabs, as a way to strip identity and considered insulting. A couple years ago there was a change.org petition wanting 23 and me to add Palestinian to the ancestry profile, but like Israel, the genetics is too much of a hodgepodge that cluster groups to identify as Palestinian or Israeli is not possible. Same is true for Americans unless they are indigenous Americans. Levantine Corridor has a complicated history and people on various sides use that complicated history over simplify it and propagandize it.

[Della]

Wells added a link to the article that isn’t behind a paywall. I’m not a fan of Wikipedia as it can be user edited but with Yehoshua his quotes are very contextual. Up until a few years before his death, he supported a 2 state solution. He never denied Palestinians their identity but was always looking at viable peaceful solutions of equality. Towards his death, he no longer thought this was possible with a 2 state solution, not because of fear, hatred, or distrust but because he didn’t see it as being viable for equality and peace.

"Here is the definition: A Zionist is a person who desires or supports the establishment of a Jewish state in the Land of Israel, which in the future will become the state of the Jewish people. This is based on what Herzl said: “In Basel I founded the Jewish state.”

The key word in this definition is “state,” and its natural location is the Land of Israel because of the Jewish people’s historical link to it."

The bolded sections. That's the entire issue with Zionism. That wasn't a land sitting empty and waiting for their return. They're almost 2000 years removed. What gave anyone the right to just move the other people who had been living there since biblical times?

Do you think Jews left for almost 2000 yrs and the Palestinians have been there since biblical times? That’s how your reply reads, the first is inaccurate and the second is complicated. There were population fluctuations. Despite expulsion, massacre, and slavery the population was never zero. There were Jews in what is present day Israel during the Byzantine Empire, The Kingdom of Jerusalem, the Mamaluk, the Ottoman Empire, etc. “Palestinians” or more accurately people who identify as Palestinian today didn’t exist as Palestinian before the Palestinian movement, which began by Arabs in Mandatory Palestine to counter Zionism. Prior to this Palestinian was a term used for all people in Mandatory Palestine: Jews, Christian, Muslim, Arabs, as a way to strip identity and considered insulting. A couple years ago there was a change.org petition wanting 23 and me to add Palestinian to the ancestry profile, but like Israel, the genetics is too much of a hodgepodge that cluster groups to identify as Palestinian or Israeli is not possible. Same is true for Americans unless they are indigenous Americans. Levantine Corridor has a complicated history and people on various sides use that complicated history over simplify it and propagandize it.

Oh no, of course not. There have been various populations of people all throughout the Levant. Obviously I meant that as a simplified version. My bad if I came across otherwise.