Arkansas Governor signs new executive law to protect women.

[Momto2boys973]

And there’s not enough data to guarantee that male to female transgender athletes don’t have a physical advantage. Activists claim they don’t, but we do need more scientific proof of that. I do agree that while that happens, athletes should compete against their natural born S*x.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9331831/

“Testosterone drives much of the enhanced athletic performance of males through in utero, early life, and adult exposure. Many anatomical S*x differences driven by testosterone are not reversible. Hemoglobin levels and muscle mass are sensitive to adult life testosterone levels, with hemoglobin being the most responsive. Studies in transgender women, and androgen-deprivation treated cancer patients, show muscle mass is retained for many months, even years, and that co-comittant exercise mitigates muscle loss. Given that sports are currently segregated into male and female divisions because of superior male athletic performance, and that estrogen therapy will not reverse most athletic performance parameters, it follows that transgender women will enter the female division with an inherent advantage because of their prior male physiology.”

I do wonder why we don’t hear of any female to male athletes, though. Anyone have examples? See how they perform in male events.

This isn’t fear mongering…it’s fairness in sports.


Women who have spent their entire lives training in a specific sport and become the best out of those women shouldn’t have to lose scholarships because a person that used to be a man is physically bigger, stronger and faster.

Trans kids are a very small portion of the population and an even smaller portion of the sports-playing kids. Trans kids are at far bigger risk due to being ostracized, excluded, and othered than girls sports are from having someone on the team who *might* be bigger.

Bigger, stronger, faster…. So in order to be more fair to trans people, women have to take a backseat.

We can see this happening in Women’s swimming, basketball, wrestling, golf, cycling… the list goes on.






Just, as a beginning point to this conversation, do you know why women’s sports and men’s sports were separate to begin with?

[Slimshandy]

The only data activists like to show is a decrease in muscle mass once on hormones…but that is not the only difference between the male and female body…


Heart size matters, how fast your heart beats matters, red blood cells matter, body fat percentages matter, bone density matters, hip size matters…


We don’t hear about female to male athletes because even if they go on testosterone, none of those advantages are given to them… so we’re not going to see them.


Then people talk about how “it’s only a small percentage “, and that’s true, but this level of athleticism is only a small percentage also. It’s not every high school kid who will be trying out for the Olympic swimming team…



The only two possibilities for why this is an issue is either
1) we have a new round of science deniers,
Or
2) we’ve decided that inclusivity in sports is more important than fairness in sports; regardless of the consequences to women in sports.

And there’s not enough data to guarantee that male to female transgender athletes don’t have a physical advantage. Activists claim they don’t, but we do need more scientific proof of that. I do agree that while that happens, athletes should compete against their natural born S*x.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9331831/

“Testosterone drives much of the enhanced athletic performance of males through in utero, early life, and adult exposure. Many anatomical S*x differences driven by testosterone are not reversible. Hemoglobin levels and muscle mass are sensitive to adult life testosterone levels, with hemoglobin being the most responsive. Studies in transgender women, and androgen-deprivation treated cancer patients, show muscle mass is retained for many months, even years, and that co-comittant exercise mitigates muscle loss. Given that sports are currently segregated into male and female divisions because of superior male athletic performance, and that estrogen therapy will not reverse most athletic performance parameters, it follows that transgender women will enter the female division with an inherent advantage because of their prior male physiology.”

I do wonder why we don’t hear of any female to male athletes, though. Anyone have examples? See how they perform in male events.

Trans kids are a very small portion of the population and an even smaller portion of the sports-playing kids. Trans kids are at far bigger risk due to being ostracized, excluded, and othered than girls sports are from having someone on the team who *might* be bigger.

Bigger, stronger, faster…. So in order to be more fair to trans people, women have to take a backseat.

We can see this happening in Women’s swimming, basketball, wrestling, golf, cycling… the list goes on.






Just, as a beginning point to this conversation, do you know why women’s sports and men’s sports were separate to begin with?

[Slimshandy]

High schools scout, recruit and give scholarships also.

Taking all scholarships away would be like saying “we’re ok with hurting a huge amount of kids in order to protect the feelings of some kids”

That would make it so that only the children of affluent adults have a chance of succeeding competitively.

Students coming from underserved communities would effectively be written out of professional sports.

That can be the case in many places already. Kids who have a family that can afford coaching, travel teams and sports camps outperform those without those advantages.

A better system would be for professional sports organizations to sponsor sports camp admissions and other training opportunities outside of the public school system and scout talent that way. Those who profit the most from the professional sports industry should finance the pipeline. The public is already underwriting stadiums and fields so this industry can make profits.

If you look at the top high school football teams in my state, the majority are in high income suburbs - one suburban area has 3 top teams. It's the same for basketball - same schools, same suburbs. If you look at the top high school players in the country in both sports, they come from a handful of states/schools and some of the repeat schools are sport prep schools (which in itself is kind of weird). Private corporations such as Dick's Sporting Goods puts a lot of money into these school programs, especially lower income schools, as it sure isn't being covered by local taxes.

I know that recruiting for other sports leans towards higher income public schools, travel teams, and private schools.

Athletic scholarships themselves are really complicated. An athlete is considered to be receiving an athletic scholarship no matter what the amount and NCAA highly regulates how many scholarships in each sport can be offered. I think a lot of people assume if someone has an athletic scholarship, that it's a full-ride but only 1% of college athletes are on full ride athletic scholarships and full rides can only be offered in specific sports (football, basketball, tennis, volleyball, and gymnastics). Also, if a student can't perform, their scholarship is usually rescinded. A medium to lower income student who is not on a full ride scholarship is generally going to be living rough and considered living in poverty.

I'm not denying that for a lot of kids and their parents, sport is the only imaginable way out of poverty. It's just incredibly sad and it doesn't have to be that way.

[Momto2boys973]

That’s the issue. Sorry, but it seems these self proclaimed “feminists” are all for supporting women… as long as that doesn’t clash with other progressive views they may have. It it does, then screw women.
The article I posted also analyzes the issue of muscle mass:
“Indeed, studies report muscle mass loss, with a 5% loss for lower limb mass or a 9.4% for total muscle mass loss after 12 months of estrogen therapy [78,79]. The loss of muscle mass did not, however, associate with loss of strength or muscle fiber density or performance”
“ The performance benefit of prior testosterone exposure for the running test is likely attributable to not only muscle mass but male skeletal architecture that, as discussed earlier includes longer limbs, a narrower pelvic structure and a greater cardiorespiratory size—all of which will not respond to changes in circulating testosterone levels in adulthood. Further to this, studies show that there is no bone mass loss in transwomen after 28–63 months of estrogen therapy”
“As discussed earlier, S*x differences in muscle mass in elite athletes can be 50–75% [30] in favor of males, thus the decrease of 5–10% reported in studies of transwomen after 1–2 years of estrogen therapy will most likely provide, at most, a modest reformatting of male muscle strength in the transwoman athlete”
“Notably, this effect can be mitigated with an exercise training program [79,84,85]. Therefore, it follows that a transwoman athlete following a high-performance training program enabling competitiveness at an elite level throughout the 12-month estrogen therapy transition period could similarly mitigate muscle mass loss”

The only data activists like to show is a decrease in muscle mass once on hormones…but that is not the only difference between the male and female body…


Heart size matters, how fast your heart beats matters, red blood cells matter, body fat percentages matter, bone density matters, hip size matters…


We don’t hear about female to male athletes because even if they go on testosterone, none of those advantages are given to them… so we’re not going to see them.


Then people talk about how “it’s only a small percentage “, and that’s true, but this level of athleticism is only a small percentage also. It’s not every high school kid who will be trying out for the Olympic swimming team…



The only two possibilities for why this is an issue is either
1) we have a new round of science deniers,
Or
2) we’ve decided that inclusivity in sports is more important than fairness in sports; regardless of the consequences to women in sports.

And there’s not enough data to guarantee that male to female transgender athletes don’t have a physical advantage. Activists claim they don’t, but we do need more scientific proof of that. I do agree that while that happens, athletes should compete against their natural born S*x.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9331831/

“Testosterone drives much of the enhanced athletic performance of males through in utero, early life, and adult exposure. Many anatomical S*x differences driven by testosterone are not reversible. Hemoglobin levels and muscle mass are sensitive to adult life testosterone levels, with hemoglobin being the most responsive. Studies in transgender women, and androgen-deprivation treated cancer patients, show muscle mass is retained for many months, even years, and that co-comittant exercise mitigates muscle loss. Given that sports are currently segregated into male and female divisions because of superior male athletic performance, and that estrogen therapy will not reverse most athletic performance parameters, it follows that transgender women will enter the female division with an inherent advantage because of their prior male physiology.”

I do wonder why we don’t hear of any female to male athletes, though. Anyone have examples? See how they perform in male events.

Bigger, stronger, faster…. So in order to be more fair to trans people, women have to take a backseat.

We can see this happening in Women’s swimming, basketball, wrestling, golf, cycling… the list goes on.






Just, as a beginning point to this conversation, do you know why women’s sports and men’s sports were separate to begin with?

[WellPreserved]

High schools scout, recruit and give scholarships also.

Taking all scholarships away would be like saying “we’re ok with hurting a huge amount of kids in order to protect the feelings of some kids”

That can be the case in many places already. Kids who have a family that can afford coaching, travel teams and sports camps outperform those without those advantages.

A better system would be for professional sports organizations to sponsor sports camp admissions and other training opportunities outside of the public school system and scout talent that way. Those who profit the most from the professional sports industry should finance the pipeline. The public is already underwriting stadiums and fields so this industry can make profits.

If you look at the top high school football teams in my state, the majority are in high income suburbs - one suburban area has 3 top teams. It's the same for basketball - same schools, same suburbs. If you look at the top high school players in the country in both sports, they come from a handful of states/schools and some of the repeat schools are sport prep schools (which in itself is kind of weird). Private corporations such as Dick's Sporting Goods puts a lot of money into these school programs, especially lower income schools, as it sure isn't being covered by local taxes.

I know that recruiting for other sports leans towards higher income public schools, travel teams, and private schools.

Athletic scholarships themselves are really complicated. An athlete is considered to be receiving an athletic scholarship no matter what the amount and NCAA highly regulates how many scholarships in each sport can be offered. I think a lot of people assume if someone has an athletic scholarship, that it's a full-ride but only 1% of college athletes are on full ride athletic scholarships and full rides can only be offered in specific sports (football, basketball, tennis, volleyball, and gymnastics). Also, if a student can't perform, their scholarship is usually rescinded. A medium to lower income student who is not on a full ride scholarship is generally going to be living rough and considered living in poverty.

I'm not denying that for a lot of kids and their parents, sport is the only imaginable way out of poverty. It's just incredibly sad and it doesn't have to be that way.

My opinion about athletic scholarships and university athletics pre-dates the discussion about transgender women in sports. I've been saying that college athletes should be paid since 1984, lol. I've been saying that college should be tuition free for everyone about that long as well.

[WellPreserved]

And there’s not enough data to guarantee that male to female transgender athletes don’t have a physical advantage. Activists claim they don’t, but we do need more scientific proof of that. I do agree that while that happens, athletes should compete against their natural born S*x.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9331831/

“Testosterone drives much of the enhanced athletic performance of males through in utero, early life, and adult exposure. Many anatomical S*x differences driven by testosterone are not reversible. Hemoglobin levels and muscle mass are sensitive to adult life testosterone levels, with hemoglobin being the most responsive. Studies in transgender women, and androgen-deprivation treated cancer patients, show muscle mass is retained for many months, even years, and that co-comittant exercise mitigates muscle loss. Given that sports are currently segregated into male and female divisions because of superior male athletic performance, and that estrogen therapy will not reverse most athletic performance parameters, it follows that transgender women will enter the female division with an inherent advantage because of their prior male physiology.”

I do wonder why we don’t hear of any female to male athletes, though. Anyone have examples? See how they perform in male events.

Trans kids are a very small portion of the population and an even smaller portion of the sports-playing kids. Trans kids are at far bigger risk due to being ostracized, excluded, and othered than girls sports are from having someone on the team who *might* be bigger.

Bigger, stronger, faster…. So in order to be more fair to trans people, women have to take a backseat.

We can see this happening in Women’s swimming, basketball, wrestling, golf, cycling… the list goes on.






Just, as a beginning point to this conversation, do you know why women’s sports and men’s sports were separate to begin with?

Chris Mosier
Patricio Manuel
Schuyler Bailar
Mack Briggs

[AZOldGal66]

The new law states:

“Students must not be forced to shower or undress with members of the opposite S*x.

Female students must not be denied equal athletic opportunities or forced to risk their safety by having biological males placed into female-designated sports leagues.”

I have no problem with this ^^^

[SallyMae]

Even if we ignore the fact that handicaps are not utilized in high school, college or professional sports…

Do you think natural born women deserve a higher handicap?

I don't think the challenges of grouping athletes by size and ability are insurmountable, forever.

Does that mean that you believe at some point we will be able to get rid of weight classes in boxing?

How are they going to be able to be overlooked in the future while maintaining a fair sport?

No, exactly the opposite. I think weight, strength and ability classes should be created right now for every sport where people of vastly different sizes participate. The featherweight swimming class might be all female, or it might include some really small males or FTM competitors who are of about the same size and ability. So what?

[SallyMae]

Arkansas Governor signs new executive law to protect women.

Gov. Sarah Huckabee Sanders signed the new order in response to Biden’s TITLE IX changes that added protections for transgender athletes.

The new law states:

“Students must not be forced to shower or undress with members of the opposite S*x.

Female students must not be denied equal athletic opportunities or forced to risk their safety by having biological males placed into female-designated sports leagues.”

I don't think students should be forced to shower or undress with *anyone.* Gross.

[Traci_Momof2]

I don't think the challenges of grouping athletes by size and ability are insurmountable, forever.

Does that mean that you believe at some point we will be able to get rid of weight classes in boxing?

How are they going to be able to be overlooked in the future while maintaining a fair sport?

No, exactly the opposite. I think weight, strength and ability classes should be created right now for every sport where people of vastly different sizes participate. The featherweight swimming class might be all female, or it might include some really small males or FTM competitors who are of about the same size and ability. So what?

I think this sounds like a truly fair way to do it. Splitting sports by gender is so ambiguous. What really matters is speed, size and strength. So why not, in all sports affected by those factors, test those factors on all students and put them in a class based on those factors. You might end up with one class that is mostly males but a few females and a few trans, another class that is mostly females but a few males and a few trans, and maybe a class somewhere in the middle that's more evenly split. But it would be fair, and everyone would be competing against others on the same level with them regardless of gender so it would be more of a measure of who's worked harder to be better.