Border Walls

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Olioxenfree wrote: Mon Oct 21, 2019 11:20 am
jas wrote: Mon Oct 21, 2019 10:05 am
Olioxenfree wrote: Mon Oct 21, 2019 8:55 am

Who is this "everybody else"? The people from countries that have a much easier time getting a visa? You don't think they would just go through the checkpoints if that was a practical option? The wait time for just the processing of an asylum seeker or refugee visa from Central America is 15 months. A green card can take over 3 years. It also costs a lot of money. When you are in a desperate situation and you or your family will not survive that long. If it were as simple as going through a checkpoint, people would not be walking through the desert in the first place.
In the 90s a 14 mile stretch of wall was built along the border covering the most popular crossing points. After it's construction, people didn't stop coming, they just took more dangerous routes, through rougher parts of the desert and by boat. The number of undocumented immigrants did not drop (especially since most undocumented immigrants never illegally cross the border), but the number of immigrants who died trying to cross the border skyrocketed.
So that excuses crossing illegally?

umm... no. It doesn't.
I'd like to know what you would do in their situation.
LAWS are put in place for a reason. You don't get to pick and choose which ones to follow because you don't like them. You vote to change them. People cannot come into this OR ANY OTHER COUNTRY illegally. Period.
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Olioxenfree wrote: Mon Oct 21, 2019 12:32 pm
AZLizardLady wrote: Mon Oct 21, 2019 11:48 am
Valentina327 wrote: Mon Oct 21, 2019 11:34 am

You taking that literally is asinine. You're unfamiliar with an analogy?

What do you mean under what circumstances? They were immigrants. They came through Ellis island. They were counted. The family was documented. I have a copy of the list somewhere that they note the family and their ages at the time they came here. They had a hearing. They were sworn in. It was the proudest day of their lives. I found paperwork that one of them got a letter and had to go for extra hearings because there were questions even after he had his papers. They complied with what was asked of them and they were damned glad and grateful to do it.
I know of so many who immigrated here from other countries (as I am sure many of us do), including Mexico and those south of the border, that did so through the proper channels.

I can only assume it's tougher now (possibly because the numbers of those immigrating are higher than before? I don't know) and the cost is much higher.


My husband's late Mom came here from Reykjavic, Iceland in the mid 1950's, and landed in Baltimore Maryland where my husband was born in 1957. She went through all of the proper channels to do so and when she became a citizen of the U.S., she was overjoyed and beyond happy.

A friend of ours...same thing with his late parent's, who came from Germany.

Another friend...Italy. Another friend...France. Two more...South America.

And so on and so forth.

None of them assumed that they could be here illegally. None of them attempted to come into this country through any means possible, including illegally.
You do realize that the immigration process was entirely different in the 50s, right?
^^My comment that I've underlined from my earlier reply above notes that I realize this.
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Olioxenfree wrote: Mon Oct 21, 2019 12:47 pm
AZLizardLady wrote: Mon Oct 21, 2019 11:42 am I can't imagine having my family and myself go to another country where resources are wearing thin for its natural born/naturalized citizens and assume that I can just mosey on in without a hitch.

I can't fathom that if I knew this particular country had rigid restrictions on border crossing, would put me and my family into a detention center for weeks...months..., and that it was costly to even attempt to go through the legal channels to become a naturalized citizen that we'd still make the trek.

That said, border walls alone will not work well and in some instances, will not work at all. Our President has used THIS issue with a sales pitch rhetoric when he speaks about it and IMO, insults the intelligence of Americans who can see for themselves that the wall alone won't cut it.

I don't feel it's immoral to ask those who are attempting to immigrate here to go through the proper channels. I DO feel it's immoral when some on the political Left excuse and exonerate the actions of those immigrants who've committed crimes while in this country.

But a border wall being successful on its own? Never going to happen.
You probably also can't imagine Your sons being kidnapped, your daughters being raped and murdered, being forced to join a gang by someone who has a gun to your parents heads, or your children being days away from dying of starvation or a preventable disease. So of course you can't imagine the motivations of people so desperate to save their families that they would take an extremely dangerous trip and risk everything to cross into the U.S., because I assure you they don't just "mosey" over the border.
So what about the immigrants who've come here illegally and done precisely what you've written...raped, murdered, killed by drunk driving, started gangs, brought drugs across the border, committed the crime of human trafficking by taking children that are not theirs yet claiming they are just to seek asylum...and so on? Are you forgetting about them?

Yes, there are good people who are desperate to make a better life but as with any collective group of people, there are bad.
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CockatooCrazyColt529 wrote: Mon Oct 21, 2019 12:07 pm
Valentina327 wrote: Mon Oct 21, 2019 10:55 am
Olioxenfree wrote: Mon Oct 21, 2019 8:53 am

You don't think they would just go through the checkpoints if that was a practical option? The wait time for just the processing of an asylum seeker or refugee visa from Central America is 15 months. A green card can take over 3 years. It also costs a lot of money. When you are in a desperate situation and you or your family will not survive that long. If it were as simple as going through a checkpoint, people would not be walking through the desert in the first place.
In the 90s a 14 mile stretch of wall was built along the border covering the most popular crossing points. After it's construction, people didn't stop coming, they just took more dangerous routes, through rougher parts of the desert and by boat. The number of undocumented immigrants did not drop (especially since most undocumented immigrants never illegally cross the border), but the number of immigrants who died trying to cross the border skyrocketed.
It's not a question of practical! So that perfectly justifies doing whatever you want and illegally sneaking into a country...because they have to wait. Just like my grandparents had to. Just like everyone who goes through the process legally has to.

A homeless man is hungry and needs somewhere to sleep, so he can just kick in your front door, make a sandwich and crawl in bed with your children and you're not going to stop him? Call the police to take him out? Have him arrested? LOL

Same concept only on a macro scale. There's a process for a reason. To make sure everyone is accommodated and that there isn't chaos. There's only so many facilities, so many judges, so much aid to go around. That's why there's laws. EVERYONE would like to come here. This is a fantastic place to live. Unfortunately we can't fit the whole world in our country.
My grandparents left Syria, traveled to Europe, got passage on a ship, and wound up at Ellis Island. The immigration process was different and much less expensive back then. I'm so glad they got to come here.
It was very different. As times have changed, the laws have changed by necessity. I'm glad they got to come here too! :)
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AZLizardLady wrote: Mon Oct 21, 2019 11:22 pm
Olioxenfree wrote: Mon Oct 21, 2019 12:47 pm
AZLizardLady wrote: Mon Oct 21, 2019 11:42 am I can't imagine having my family and myself go to another country where resources are wearing thin for its natural born/naturalized citizens and assume that I can just mosey on in without a hitch.

I can't fathom that if I knew this particular country had rigid restrictions on border crossing, would put me and my family into a detention center for weeks...months..., and that it was costly to even attempt to go through the legal channels to become a naturalized citizen that we'd still make the trek.

That said, border walls alone will not work well and in some instances, will not work at all. Our President has used THIS issue with a sales pitch rhetoric when he speaks about it and IMO, insults the intelligence of Americans who can see for themselves that the wall alone won't cut it.

I don't feel it's immoral to ask those who are attempting to immigrate here to go through the proper channels. I DO feel it's immoral when some on the political Left excuse and exonerate the actions of those immigrants who've committed crimes while in this country.

But a border wall being successful on its own? Never going to happen.
You probably also can't imagine Your sons being kidnapped, your daughters being raped and murdered, being forced to join a gang by someone who has a gun to your parents heads, or your children being days away from dying of starvation or a preventable disease. So of course you can't imagine the motivations of people so desperate to save their families that they would take an extremely dangerous trip and risk everything to cross into the U.S., because I assure you they don't just "mosey" over the border.
So what about the immigrants who've come here illegally and done precisely what you've written...raped, murdered, killed by drunk driving, started gangs, brought drugs across the border, committed the crime of human trafficking by taking children that are not theirs yet claiming they are just to seek asylum...and so on? Are you forgetting about them?

Yes, there are good people who are desperate to make a better life but as with any collective group of people, there are bad.
The percentage of undocumented immigrants who commit a violent crime in the US is immensely small. You are far more likely to have those things done to you by a citizen, yet no one is trying to kick out every white man. And if those things are your concern, building the wall does nothing to stop them since most undocumented immigrants do not get here by sneaking over the border.
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AZLizardLady wrote: Mon Oct 21, 2019 11:19 pm
Olioxenfree wrote: Mon Oct 21, 2019 12:32 pm
AZLizardLady wrote: Mon Oct 21, 2019 11:48 am

I know of so many who immigrated here from other countries (as I am sure many of us do), including Mexico and those south of the border, that did so through the proper channels.

I can only assume it's tougher now (possibly because the numbers of those immigrating are higher than before? I don't know) and the cost is much higher.


My husband's late Mom came here from Reykjavic, Iceland in the mid 1950's, and landed in Baltimore Maryland where my husband was born in 1957. She went through all of the proper channels to do so and when she became a citizen of the U.S., she was overjoyed and beyond happy.

A friend of ours...same thing with his late parent's, who came from Germany.

Another friend...Italy. Another friend...France. Two more...South America.

And so on and so forth.

None of them assumed that they could be here illegally. None of them attempted to come into this country through any means possible, including illegally.
You do realize that the immigration process was entirely different in the 50s, right?
^^My comment that I've underlined from my earlier reply above notes that I realize this.
So than why compare the two? Why bring up how the people you know did it "right" when it's an entirely different process?
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Olioxenfree wrote: Tue Oct 22, 2019 2:51 am
AZLizardLady wrote: Mon Oct 21, 2019 11:19 pm
Olioxenfree wrote: Mon Oct 21, 2019 12:32 pm

You do realize that the immigration process was entirely different in the 50s, right?
^^My comment that I've underlined from my earlier reply above notes that I realize this.
So than why compare the two? Why bring up how the people you know did it "right" when it's an entirely different process?
What's right is right, regardless of the process. They followed the process at the time they came. They came here legally, abiding by our laws that were enacted at that moment.

Why on earth do you think that just because you don't like something it makes obeying the law optional? That's not how anything works.
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Valentina327 wrote: Tue Oct 22, 2019 3:21 am
Olioxenfree wrote: Tue Oct 22, 2019 2:51 am
AZLizardLady wrote: Mon Oct 21, 2019 11:19 pm

^^My comment that I've underlined from my earlier reply above notes that I realize this.
So than why compare the two? Why bring up how the people you know did it "right" when it's an entirely different process?
What's right is right, regardless of the process. They followed the process at the time they came. They came here legally, abiding by our laws that were enacted at that moment.

Why on earth do you think that just because you don't like something it makes obeying the law optional? That's not how anything works.
98% of ellis island immigrants were allowed in the country, you literally had to show up and not have a visible infectious disease, I assure you if the process was anything like it is now, a lot of these people you are talking about would have considered other methods of immigration. So when Germany occupied Poland and it became illegal for Jews to leave the country, they should have just stayed and been killed rather than illegally crossing borders? Because since it was law, they should have just sucked it up and dealt with it?
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Olioxenfree wrote: Tue Oct 22, 2019 4:18 am
Valentina327 wrote: Tue Oct 22, 2019 3:21 am
Olioxenfree wrote: Tue Oct 22, 2019 2:51 am

So than why compare the two? Why bring up how the people you know did it "right" when it's an entirely different process?
What's right is right, regardless of the process. They followed the process at the time they came. They came here legally, abiding by our laws that were enacted at that moment.

Why on earth do you think that just because you don't like something it makes obeying the law optional? That's not how anything works.
98% of ellis island immigrants were allowed in the country, you literally had to show up and not have a visible infectious disease, I assure you if the process was anything like it is now, a lot of these people you are talking about would have considered other methods of immigration. So when Germany occupied Poland and it became illegal for Jews to leave the country, they should have just stayed and been killed rather than illegally crossing borders? Because since it was law, they should have just sucked it up and dealt with it?
WHAT? You're honestly NOT comparing the MASS EXTERMINATION of an entire group of people that, based on their nationality, were literally being rounded up and gassed to people that are coming here and forcing their way into our country for a better financial outlook for their family, are you? Seriously?

I'm not continuing this conversation. You are far too warped, and display zero common sense. Good day.
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Valentina327 wrote: Tue Oct 22, 2019 8:40 am
Olioxenfree wrote: Tue Oct 22, 2019 4:18 am
Valentina327 wrote: Tue Oct 22, 2019 3:21 am

What's right is right, regardless of the process. They followed the process at the time they came. They came here legally, abiding by our laws that were enacted at that moment.

Why on earth do you think that just because you don't like something it makes obeying the law optional? That's not how anything works.
98% of ellis island immigrants were allowed in the country, you literally had to show up and not have a visible infectious disease, I assure you if the process was anything like it is now, a lot of these people you are talking about would have considered other methods of immigration. So when Germany occupied Poland and it became illegal for Jews to leave the country, they should have just stayed and been killed rather than illegally crossing borders? Because since it was law, they should have just sucked it up and dealt with it?
WHAT? You're honestly NOT comparing the MASS EXTERMINATION of an entire group of people that, based on their nationality, were literally being rounded up and gassed to people that are coming here and forcing their way into our country for a better financial outlook for their family, are you? Seriously?

I'm not continuing this conversation. You are far too warped, and display zero common sense. Good day.
They were exterminated because of their religion, not their nationality. Do you have any idea what's going on in Central America? People are running for their lives, because if they don't they and their families will be killed. There are brutal organizations allowed by the government who are killing thousands of people. They aren't all just leaving for money. Do some research before you start calling names. And overall my point is just because it is law, does not mean someone is horrible for breaking it.
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